Amendment Requirements for Carrying Handguns in State Forests
Virginia Department of Forestry
Public Meeting Comments
March 4, 2010
Chapter Title: Virginia State Forest Regulations (4 VAC 10-30-170)
Agency Contact: Ronald S. Jenkins, Assistant State Forester. Ph: 434-220-9022. E-Mail: ron.jenkins@dof.virginia.gov
Description: Amend the regulation to allow the lawful carry of concealed handguns with a concealed handgun permit. Once the State Forest regulations are successfully amended, the requirements for carrying handguns on State Forests will be similar to those governing handguns on State Parks.
Statutory Authority: §10.1-1107 of the Code of Virginia
Text of Regulation: http://townhall.virginia.gov/L/viewstage.cfm?stageid=5277&display=documents
Virginia Regulatory Town Hall website: http://www.townhall.state.va.us/index.cfm
4VAC10-30-170. Explosives, fires firearms, etc.
No person shall bring into or have in any forest any explosive or explosive substance, except commercial sporting firearms ammunition; explosives, explosive substances and firearms of all types are prohibited in any portion of a forest assigned to the Department of Forestry, for administration as a recreational area. This regulation shall not apply to the carrying of concealed handguns within state forests by holders of a valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to § 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia.
You can also read the online comments.
Comments by meeting attendees
These comments are from a public hearing meeting held in Buckingham Courthouse. More than 4000 other comments were submitted through the Virginia Town Hall website.
Bruce Jackson
Good afternoon, my name is Bruce Jackson; I live at 115 Oak Lawn Road, Stafford, Virginia. I am here today to comment on the Virginia State Forests regulations, 4 VAC 10-30-170, regarding explosives, firearms, etc. I am also here for instead of Phillip VanCleave, President of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, grassroots organization trying to make sure that the rights of the people regarding firearms did not get left out and we have a minor modification looking at this. You’re talking about those who carry concealed hand guns and not the legal open carrying of firearms. In Virginia, it is legal to openly carry a loaded firearm if you are 18 years of age and older. You only need a permit if you are going to conceal it, basically it has been decided in several courts across the land that although concealed carry is allowed to be regulated for the simple fact that concealing it in some historical sense supposedly means that you may have some deleterious purpose, the open carry of firearms was always considered constitutional so to a certain extent by not taking open carry into account here you may be very well going against the constitution and you may even open yourself up for some type of summary judgment beings that if I go to a Judge and I say Judge I’m afraid I don’t have a concealed carry permit, and if I go into a State Forest then I might be arrested based on their regulation. Now if you take a look at the handout that I’ve given, it is an opinion, you may recognize some of the names, it was an opinion given to Senator Cuccinelli by then Attorney General Robert McDonnell that basically said and some, I highlighted a couple of components on page 4 and page 5, if you turn to page 4, the bottom paragraph, it says “I find no specific statutory authority granting the Department the authority to prohibit the open carrying of firearms in state parks”. Now that was state parks, we didn’t realize at that time that state forests had regulations that was restricting as well. So we want you to take a look at this because it is very very close. You’re talking one word in a couple of places that’s different. And then looking at page 5, it says what’s highlighted, is “It is within the sole discretion of the General Assembly to limit the carrying of firearms in parks beyond that restricted by 18.2-287.4. So basically, the General Assembly makes the rules. Just for the record, 18.2-287.4 is in essence regarding carrying that of what would be considered a home land defense gun something that came at the time at the time of the occurrence would hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition and come equipped with a folding stock where I could leave a threaded barrel so it has nothing to do with carrying a hand gun at this instance. So, it is just, in sum what I would like to say is that I would like you to amend this not only to allow the lawful concealed carry of firearms for those that have valid permits, but also to allow open carry in accordance with state law that way we do not have one, one of the problems we have in the state is we have multiple laws in multiple places so anytime you cross some invisible line somewhere you can become a foul of the law with no ill intent whatsoever and that’s what this could possibly cause. I call your attention to the law with the national park rule that was just changed for that specific purpose especially here in Virginia when you’re driving down the road and all of a sudden you see a sign that says you are now leaving such and such a national park and you don’t even know you didn’t even know you were in a park. Well I think you could have the same issue with state forests and we don’t want trip hazards that turn law abiding citizens into criminals. Thank you for your time.
Paul Henick
My name is Paul Henick, I live at 20 2701 Goolsby Avenue, in Richmond, Virginia. I am a member of the Virginia Citizens Defense League but I’m speaking as an individual. I am also here to speak on 4 Virginia Administrative Code 10-30-170 of the Code of Virginia, etc., etc. and the amendment thereof. I also rise to ask this group and the Department of Forestry as a whole when making any amendments to include the lawful open carry of firearms, a permit is not necessary, the same Attorney General opinion that Mr. Jackson had brought to your attention has numerous other citations within it, essentially advising that except in those cases where the General Assembly of Virginia has specifically granted by statute authorization for an agency to address the issue, they have pre-empted the entire field of, I would suggest to you that in that case your attempted your proposed, excuse me, the word is proposed, amendment would benefit better by lifting taking back and completely reworked. I’m not sure exactly how I would phrase it, I’m not here to suggest that to you, what I’m here to do is to suggest to you that this is a field that is essentially close to you to pretty much bring that to your attention and ask you to recognize that fact of perhaps leaving everything out of that and include including in the part that is not the proposed additional wording. Take out the words “commercial sporting firearms ammunition” “and firearms of all types” would would do that. It seems a simpler way than than going back trying, trying to get that last sentence to “shall not apply to the carrying of concealed handguns within state forests by holders of a valid concealed handgun permit, etc., etc. and the lawful open carry of firearms because now you’ve just said exactly what I’ve been try to say to you, you have no authority under the General Assembly’s grant authority to your Department to make any regulation on that to say except for these guys and those guys which is the entire world of fire arms carriers in Virginia seems to be a waste of paper. Thank you very much.
Paul Naas
My name is Paul Naas I live at 4202 South James Madison Highway, right down the road. I too am a member of VCDL and I am definitely in favor of getting rid of the the restriction on concealed and open carry because like they say, I mean there, it makes no difference I can carry open anywhere I don’t need my concealed weapons permit to carry in Virginia as long as I’m not a criminal I have that right so like I said, I just wanted to show my face and let everybody know that that I’m definitely in support of the change and in favor of the change.
Darrell Welch
My name is Darrell Welch and I’m from Richmond, Virginia, with VCDL. I’d like make an observation more than specifics. The commonality of laws and rules throughout the Commonwealth doesn’t fit the honest citizen. We all know _______ there are all sorts of rules _____________. As a matter of technicality, open carry is extremely comfortable in the summer time, it means that I don’t have to stop and think and check whether I’ve walked across another boundary line. My primary observation is I think we are all alike, we’re in the same boat, we all want to go to work, we all want to go home to our families, and we all want to be safe throughout that entire time. The only difference that I see, one difference between you and I, you wear a tie almost every day.
Clinton Kritzer
Good morning ladies and gentlemen, I’d like to thank you for hearing us today, my name is Clint Kritzer, I live at 677 Cloverdale Road, in Bremo Bluff, Virginia, right across the river over in God’s country in Fluvanna. I am also a member of the Virginia Citizens Defense League but I’m also here speaking as a citizen and as a parent of teenage children. I have a daughter who will be attending Longwood just down the street here in the next coming school year. She will be 18. Part of the problem with restricting open carry in the proposed statute, the part why we are recommending that you allow open carry is that in the Commonwealth of Virginia you are not allowed to even apply for a concealed hand gun permit until you reach the age of 21. This leaves a large percentage, a very vulnerable part of the society vulnerable to four legged and two legged predators under the current statute. I would point your attention to this past August when two students, Virginia Tech students were killed just outside Jefferson National or Jefferson State Forest. I’m sure I don’t have to inform you folks of that. Now were these hand gun carrying people otherwise, I don’t really know, but your statute would have prevented them from legally carrying at that place if they were indeed over the line into the into the forest. All we ask is that we have an opportunity to defend ourselves for the sake of we don’t know. If the girl’s body was outside of the park, perhaps she would have had a chance to have stopped traffic. As far as I know, no one has ever been arrested for that. I would also point to a point that Mr. Jackson also brought up in his initial comments that the national parks have gone ahead and conceded to state law in each of the 50 respective states regarding carry in their parks, so the Commonwealth, once again should lead the nation in going ahead and implementing these same laws. I would also point to the interesting fact that the DC Rape Crisis Center has a specific link to Virginia state parks. I found that very interesting. So obviously there is some type of problem that needs to be addressed. We just ask that our lady friends be able to defend themselves when they’re looking to use the recreational facilities there. Of course we know what happened out in California just recently with the young lady who got killed there perhaps. She was only 17 but she could have had a chance to defend herself as well. So speaking as a father of a daughter who enjoys open carry on her own property now, which is legal in the Commonwealth, I would ask that you amend to allow concealed carry as well as open carry in the state parks state forests. Thank you so much.
Richard Donahue
Hello, my name is Richard Donahue, I’m here as a member of VCDL, NRA and also a member of the National Guard. I am a young father of two. I carry because I choose to. I come from a New England state which I even had to have a permit to own a gun, not just carry, to own. I do not believe in a permit, I do not have one currently. I do not wish to get one. Having the law include open carry is my would would affect me so that I could take my family my children to the park and show them some of the history in the Virginia area. Again, I agree with what Mr. Jackson said also, I mean, the federal government just opened up open carry to the federal state the national parks that would be a very open thing to do here in the state of Virginia to so I won’t be in violation of any laws when I take my family out.
Thomas Mann
I’m Thomas Mann, I live at 1223 Park Street, Charlottesville, Virginia, I’ve been in Charlottesville for about 3 years now. I’m also a member of VCDL, U. S. Concealed Carry Association, and Citizens Committee to Bear Arms, life member of NRA, life member of North American Hunting Club and retired Lt. Colonel in the Army. I raised three sons. They all knew how to deal with firearms since the age of 8. Never had an accident. Never had a problem with them. I still carry myself. My wife who died was a concealed carry permit holder we were some of the first folks who lived in Fauquier County to get a concealed carry permit. I fully support the change in regulations to allow concealed carry and open carry in state forests and parks and I wish that you amend what you have here so that it’ll reflect that. I think it is very important. Thank you.
Jane LittenHello, I am Jane Litten, I live at 8294 Burnside Drive, Mechanicsville, I fully support everything that the VCDL supports. This is a law that it should be allowed. It is a matter safety. I’m not, granted I don’t go in to those state parks and state forests alone, but if I did I would want to be able to defend myself. You never know who’s out there. We have a farm in Lunenburg County, our nearest neighbor couldn’t hear me scream if I screamed to the top of my lungs for days. I have to be able to defend myself. And I can on our farm and I should be able to do that any where I go. Thank you.
Paul Henick
Again, my name is Paul Henick, I would like to amend and revise my comments, that’s the phrase I remember from Congress, the appropriate one, I’m doing this because, first Jackson forgot to say this, Virginia Citizen’s Defense League, Bruce is our official representative and the members here here today representing the membership which is over 7,000 dues paying members and over 13,000 individuals who subscribe to our free e-mail newsletter. We are not the only ones that are from the organization who are concerned about this, we are the ones who some how managed to find the time to get off from whatever else usually compels our daily routine to show up here. So take us and multiply us by at least 7,000 if not by 13,000. Thank you.
Bruce Jackson
Again, Bruce Jackson, Stafford, Virginia. Some of the concerns people typically have about some who openly carries are other members of the public possibly getting concerned so to speak and causing a lot of problems. One of the things that we found is that if you let this happen then it naturally desensitizes the people, they get less concerned about it. I’ll give you a story about a member of our organization who was open carrying and he was in a bank, yes it is legal to open carry in a bank unless the bank is posted. He was in there filling out a deposit slip when some body came running in wearing a ski mask, saw his gun, stopped, turned around and ran out. He finished his deposit slip, walked up, handed it to the teller and the teller says “aren’t you going after him”. He says, after who. He didn’t even see the individual, but in essence, he had foiled a bank robbery just by being there. Or recently there was another story in the news, and I can’t remember if it was Virginia or another state, where there were a couple of gentlemen sitting in a Waffle House and there was someone coming in that was trying to determine whether or not he and three friends in a car were going to rob the place and they were waiting for these two individuals to leave because the individuals were openly carrying loaded firearms. While they were waiting for those individuals to leave, the police saw the car behind the Waffle House, thought it was a little strange and stopped the people and foiled them and basically took them all off to jail so they never got a chance. To open carry a firearm is a deterrent to crime in a lot of cases and you can see that across the United States. I’m an instructor, I teach people to get their concealed hand gun permits in Virginia, Florida, Utah, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts amongst others. Over 4,000 students. ____ studies show that criminals do not use holsters and they illegally carry their guns, they carry them concealed. So if you see some body wearing a holster, they are not the issue, they are not the problem; they are not the one you need to be concerned with. If we take the first 10 years of concealed carry in the state from 1995 to 2005, which is the last time I did any research, not one firearm, not one concealed carry permit holder used their gun to commit a crime, not a single one. They prove themselves to be the most law abiding portion of the population. If you have a concealed carry permit holder, they are less likely to commit their first felony than the average off duty law enforcement officer statically. Not one innocent bystander in this country has ever been shot, wounded or killed by a concealed carry permit holder. And basically, kind of in sum, I’m not I’m not a lawyer but it is my understanding that the laws of Virginia tell you what you can’t do, not what you can do. So things are legal just by the fact that they don’t put them in the Code, and my question is, if there’s already laws against certain behavior with a firearm, whether that be brandishing or using in an intimidating manner or discharge, you know, in an unsafe way, if there is already laws on that, already laws to to or charges written up for people that do these things then what’s the point of having this additional Code at all? Where’s the benefit? I would think that if you would just do away with that restriction at all and just not have it then it becomes legal by the fact that it’s not in the Code and you can just rely on State law. If you simplify your Code, simplify your lives. Just a thought. Thank you for your time.
?
A lot of people ask me why I got a concealed weapons permit and I did get one in 1995. I happened to be friends with Frank Wagner when this was all coming about and he e-mailed me a copy of the law just as soon as it was passed and I was on the phone right away, I was in Virginia Beach at the time, and I was on the phone right away with various places to see who was going to handle the the a course to allow us to get a concealed weapon and the guy that I happened to get first he says well he said I’d love to teach the course, he said but I don’t know what I need to teach, he said I don’t know what’s in the law. And I said, well I do. He said well how do you know and I said I got a copy and he was quite shocked that I showed him a copy. And so, what I’m trying to say is that I did get a concealed weapons permit from him within 2 to 3 weeks of this law being passed. But people have asked me why, well way, way back in the early 80’s had a young family, four kids, wife, and my parents were moving out of the house they lived in for 30 years, we had 11 kids, so God knows you know what’s all stacked in that house, with a 3 ½ car garage you couldn’t even get a bicycle in, so my Dad was still in the house when my Mom had a massive stroke and I went to Virginia Beach by myself in a 80 150 van, had all the seats out so I could get some things that I purchased from them. I always liked to travel at night. At night usually is when I took off, don’t have to worry about traffic. Stopped at the rest station right up here in Richmond on 64, got out of the van and I was sure in my mind I locked the doors. And before I went, an old fellow across the street says Paul, says have you got something to carry. What do you mean Joe, what do you mean, what do I have to carry. He says do you have something to carry. I said Joe what are you talking about and he says a gun. I said Joe I don’t have any need for a gun, oh you never know. So after probably 20 minutes of him trying to convince me, I said, he said I could use his gun. So he gave me an old 38 Smith and Wesson. The bullets were white because they, the bullets just corroded, but just to make him happy I put it next to my seat and took off. When I’m in Richmond , I’m coming out of the facility, and I see two guys and they were sailors, I’m an x-sailor so I got nothing against sailors, two sailors, it was winter time, with p-coats on getting in my side door. So I’m thinking my God I got that gun sitting there so I rushed around and I unlocked it, picked it up and put it in my lap and these two guys in the back, they were drunk, and I said what can I do for you and they said well we want a ride. I said no, I came alone I’m leaving alone. Probably 10 minutes I’m talking to these people please get out of my van. One of them I seen had a bottle of Jim Beam in there. The last thing I need is a couple of drunks, anybody in my truck drunk. And at that point, after arguing with them, not arguing, but but strongly saying I came alone I’m leaving alone, please get out, I took that weapon off my lap, put it towards the floor, over my seat, and oh my God you’d thought, they they like to broke the door off the van trying to get out. And as the gentleman said they are a deterrence. I didn’t have to point it at them I didn’t have to do anything. That was my change in moment on being able to protect yourself. Just to let you to know there is a lot of different things that go on _____. Thank you.
NOTE: The tape of these public meeting comments are on file in the Office of the State Forester.
Last modified: Thursday, 09-Feb-2012 10:50:16 EST
